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Red Grange the Golden age of RED
26 Plays1 month ago
I talk about the upcoming Illinois-Michigan game and have an interview with Douglas Villhard about his book The Golden Age of Red. A historical fiction novel about Red Grange
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Transcript
Introduction & Show Kickoff
00:00:13
Speaker
The rumors are true.
00:00:31
Speaker
This is Talking Sports on the Bleachers with John Glenn. A confident young man, a superb athlete. A look at the sports issues of the day. Holy cow! Grab a seat, pop a cold one. Gee, that sounds kind of interesting. And let's talk some sports. You got to get it done!
00:01:00
Speaker
Bulls with the widespread stance, arms out over the plate. Bickford from the stretch. The 1-1 pitch. A swing, Dodger Stadium on September 23, 2022. 8.23 PM Pacific time.
00:01:48
Speaker
Badgers have no timeouts. They can't stop it.
00:02:47
Speaker
Are you crying? There's no crying! There's no crying in baseball!
00:03:02
Speaker
um talk about playoffs you kidding me playoffs
00:03:53
Speaker
Well, hello there, folks! I am back. This
100th Anniversary of Memorial Stadium
00:03:57
Speaker
is Don Glenn. This is the Talking Sports on the Bleachers program. Hey, tonight I've got something special for you guys. This weekend is the 100th anniversary dedication of Memorial Stadium on the campus of the University of Illinois.
00:04:15
Speaker
100 years ago, October 18th actually, 1924, the stadium was dedicated and the opponent was the University of Michigan. Through the efforts of Brett Bealman and Josh butman Whitman, they were able to get this this weekend set up to play the University of Michigan at Memorial Stadium Uh, and it's nearly 100 years to the day. I mean, it'll be October 19th. So, you know, just a day off, but nearly 100 years to the day. And I was contacted by a man named of West Sealy who said, Hey, you know, I've got this guy who wrote a book about red Grange concerning the game.
Spotlight on 'The Golden Age of Red'
00:04:57
Speaker
And I like, you know, this this was a nice idea. So I got ahold of this gentleman and if the book is called the golden age of red, and it's by,
00:05:06
Speaker
Doug Villhard, he is a professor and author and a huge Red Grange fan. So I thought it'd be great to have him on and talk about his book. And I've read some of the book. I haven't read it all yet, but it is a wonderful piece of work. If you are an Illinois fan, if you are a Red Grange fan, if you are a fan of good reading, this is a book to read.
00:05:34
Speaker
Trust me you will love it and you're hopefully will like the interview classified i guess historical fiction. In that you know we don't know the conversations and dealings that the whatever that that green chat with different people at the time.
00:05:49
Speaker
But, you know, there was enough his as he will point out and then tell you, but you're going to hear all the characters that were involved, the real characters that were involved. You know, Bob Zubke, George Halas, Cece Pyle, a number of different entities that were involved in the entire situation surrounding Red Grange in college and in the pros. So that's going to come up a little bit later. But I do want to talk about the Illinois Michigan game coming up.
00:06:17
Speaker
Now there are other games that are going to be just as important, um, and have some high profile contest in the, uh, um, this weekend, but I think Illinois, Michigan is huge for a couple of reasons.
Preview: Illinois vs Michigan Game
00:06:30
Speaker
Number one, this, well, huge for Michigan in the sense that they can't lose again. They've got two losses. They're effectively right now on the bubble. When you consider a big 10 championship,
00:06:45
Speaker
are playing for a big 10 championship. They're on the bubble when you consider possibility of making the top 12 for the NCAA football playoffs. So this game's huge for them. They've got to win because they've got some upcoming contest against other heavy teams in that they've got after they play Illinois,
00:07:08
Speaker
They have to go to, or they play Michigan State and Oregon at home, Indiana on the road, Northwestern home, and Ohio State on the road. you know There's a possibility, and i'm not I'm not lying when I say this, if they lose to Illinois, there's a possibility they are a six loss team this year. I know Michigan fans don't wanna hear that, but that's the reality. You could be a six loss team this year.
00:07:37
Speaker
Now, Illinois, consequently, with only one loss, their, their schedule doesn't look bad when you compare it to Michigan. When you compare the Illinois schedule to Michigan and what they've got left after this game, Illinois has Oregon at Oregon. Then that's, uh, then at home against Minnesota, Michigan state. Then they end the season at Rutgers and at Northwestern.
00:08:05
Speaker
completely easier schedule than what Michigan has got to go through the rest of the season. Illinois, if they beat Michigan, could only end up with one more loss at Oregon. And I i don't want to believe Oregon is as good as they are, but until and tell somebody comes up and slaps them, I'm going to have to say that Oregon is probably as good as they're being advertised.
00:08:33
Speaker
and it'll be interesting. And that'll also be a, it'll be back to back. Weeks in Illinois will be on CBS at 3.30, so that'll be fun. But anyway, so big implications in this game. Now I know there's some other games. ellen Indiana, Nebraska is a big game.
00:08:50
Speaker
um That one has also some big 10 playoff implications when you're talking Indiana's undefeated and Nebraska only has one loss. Ohio State only has one loss. um So you've got six teams and effective that are either undefeated or one loss. So big game coming up. um People are making a lot to do about the last three games for Illinois and how they've allowed the run and working with Michigan's running game with Mullings and and
00:09:31
Speaker
Edwards, yeah, they're good runners. And Illinois has been run on. Purdue ran on them. Penn State ran on them. Nebraska ran on them. But I think we're we're talking in in a couple of different veins here. In Nebraska, they had kind of a three-pronged attack for really in a running game with two good backs plus their quarterback. Penn State is always very tough up front. And you know that game was a hell of a lot closer than a lot of people think.
00:09:59
Speaker
um so you know i'm i'm not putting a lot of um credence to the fact that they, that game was not a good game, uh, for Illinois defensive wise, uh, they, they shot themselves in the foot offensively in that game, but Purdue, yes, very disconcerting when you have, and you basically controlled the running game for the first half. And then all of a sudden they turned the quarterback loose and now, you know, you're in a fight for your life. So yeah, that was disconcerting. Um, but I think,
00:10:33
Speaker
Couple things with that is, number one, nobody really Illinois had no real idea on how good Brown was. He hadn't played that much. So maybe that played into it a little bit. I think maybe they got a little complacent. And then, you know, when that fumble... and they find Fumbled by Altmeyer that was a scoop and and score That was bad. You know, they blew the onside kick I mean how you sit there watch that onside kick go through the front the front group Get to the back group and the other team still recover it. They just fell asleep at the wheel you take You get rid of those two mistakes. It's not even a game. Okay, so I'm not worried about that now when you go to Michigan and you look at what they've done the last three games and
00:11:20
Speaker
You go back and they beat USC, number 11 USC. That's a good game, but 27 to 24. They beat Minnesota, 27 to 24. Okay, Minnesota wasn't ranked. Minnesota's not that good.
00:11:37
Speaker
and you got win by three. Then Washington beats him by 10. So as much as people want to make of Illinois having difficulty over the last three games, Michigan has had just as about as much difficulty. So I'm not buying the fact that Michigan is this all great great team. They're good. They've got solid solid running backs, but they're running their third string quarterback in this game. That's already been decided. The first two guys have been very ineffective so far this year.
00:12:07
Speaker
Now everybody's saying that Orgy can run. This is the second string, or orgy Alex Orgy can run. I don't see him as big of a running threat as Brown was for Purdue. Illinois has a top pass defense. Michigan has a horrible passing offense. So I don't think Illinois is going to have to play extra in the secondary. They can afford to load the box because they're going to have a full compliment in their secondary. Everybody is healthy.
00:12:36
Speaker
On the other side of the ball Illinois has had a little bit of an issue with running the ball Not getting quite the yards they thought but you I'm telling you don't sell that running game short Brett Bilema is a master at about game balance. And with Altmaier playing the way he is, 1400 yards passing, 14 touchdowns, only one interception. And to put that in perspective, last year, the entire year, he threw 14 touchdowns with 10 interceptions. So, you know, he has improved a lot. He's got some very good receivers in Bryant and Franklin. They've got some big help in Arkin and Colin Dixon and Malik Elsie.
00:13:21
Speaker
This team, passing wise, is one of the best passing offenses around. And Michigan has a very porous pass defense, plus their top DB is out. So they're not gonna be able to put top people on both Franklin and Bryant, which I think is gonna just, it's gonna lead to a lot of underneath, they're probably key on Bryant, leaving Franklin alone to go that underneath route.
00:13:48
Speaker
He's good after the catch. He's getting about 14 yards at a ah reception. And, you know, Illinois can eat up ground, eat up clock, run ah run the ball. Fagging is questionable, but they still have three good backs in Lowry.
00:14:03
Speaker
um Macrae and Valentine. And Valentine, I tell you, this kid's going to be great. I hope i i hope he sticks around because I think him and Lowry and Fagan make a wonderful backfield trio that I just i think teams are going to have trouble with down the road.
00:14:25
Speaker
So I think this game's big. ah Indiana, Nebraska is big. I'm not, don't get me wrong. That's a big game too. But I think with this game, with Illinois, with ah it being the 100 year dedication, and again we're going to talk with ah Doug Villard later.
00:14:43
Speaker
um You know, the whole red grains, the 100, I think the emotions are so high in this game. This is, this is just a huge game for Illinois. It's one they're going to have to have. It's one game that Brett Bielma has put on his schedule for the last couple of years. And him and Josh Whitman really worked their butts off to get this game in the spot that it's in. So they're not taking this game lightly at all. And again, it's playoff implications for Illinois.
00:15:13
Speaker
They beat Michigan. They, and and they can somehow take down Oregon. You know, they are in the mix. and They're in the mix right now, but it's going to take some doing. I mean, it's going to take Indiana losing a game. It's going to take Oregon and Illinois can control that. Illinois can control that. Uh, the only, I mean, Penn state, the only team I see beating Penn state besides themselves is Ohio state.
00:15:42
Speaker
So Indiana's got a couple tough games. Oregon's got a couple tough games coming up. So the possibility of those guys having one or two losses is huge. Illinois, like I said, after this game in Oregon, they don't really have a super tough game on the schedule. So this is this game's huge. They've got to have this game. If they're going to have any hope of trying to Uh, get a spot in the big 10 championship or maybe even crack the top 12. They have to have this game and they have to have next week, but one game at a time. I mean, Brett Bealum is, is very adamant about that, that it's, uh, every new, every week they go one to know every week. They got to go one to know, uh, so far they've done that five times. Now, uh, I can say a couple of the big games nationally on the schedule. You've got Tennessee and Alabama, Alabama. I'm going to tell you folks that that's a team that it's confusing to me. I mean, look at what's going on with these guys. They got beat by Vanderbilt. They
Key Matchup: Tennessee vs Alabama
00:16:49
Speaker
haven't really played what I would consider. I don't think a lot of people consider Alabama football. Um,
00:16:57
Speaker
You know, and they're coming up against the Tennessee team that, you know, they're hungry. They want they, and, and Tennessee's fighting for that. This is a seven versus 11, uh, Tennessee's 11, Alabama's number seven. They could easily, if Tennessee wins this game, flip-flop that.
00:17:16
Speaker
Which means if Alabama would lose another game, because like I said, I don't see a three win or three loss team in any conference making the NCAA playoff top 12 playoff system. Because after Tennessee, Alabama's got Mizzou, LSU. Then they've got Mercer, how they get Mercer in the middle of the conference season, I have no clue. But then Oklahoma and of course the Iron Bowl it all against Auburn.
00:17:44
Speaker
You're not, I mean, that lost to Vandy is huge again for Alabama. That lost to Vandy was just huge. Now, Tennessee, consequently, after this Alabama game, they are home versus Kentucky, Mississippi State. They do have Georgia on the schedule coming up at Georgia and then UTEP and they end the season against Vandy. So here we go, Vandy again, you know, and
00:18:14
Speaker
It's, you know, Vandy's four and two in the conference right now or four and two overall two and one in the conference. you know, they, and say, who's Vandy got? that I got to look this up. Who's Vandy got this week? Uh, Vandy Vanderbilt plays ball state there. So let's say Vanderbilt can win. They go five and five and one or five and two. Uh, Bama loses the Tennessee. Both teams are five. And it when was the last time you seen Vanderbilt and Alabama both at five and two? I, I, somebody tell me when that happened. I, cause I don't know when it did.
00:18:49
Speaker
But you've got that game. Then you also have Texas taken on Georgia on a national so on the national stage. That game is going to be big. um you know Georgia right now, they are number five. Texas is number one.
00:19:07
Speaker
That game is going to be one that, you know, again, it's going to shape how the playoff system is going to go. Uh, cause we're down down to what the week, uh, week seven, I think six or seven yeah week seven for most, most teams. Um, now's when you really start need to solidifying where you're at in the playoffs and you got five games left after this week.
00:19:30
Speaker
So now's when you got to start looking at it. And, um, you know, like I said, with, with Texas, they're number one right now. They lose to Georgia. Do they fall out of the top four? I don't know. But again, you go back to the playoff system and and and here's the thing. You got to remember on this playoff system. Okay. So here's how the playoff system goes. If you're a little quick recap, um, the first four seeds are go to the power for conference champions.
00:19:58
Speaker
then it goes by the top 12 in the rankings. So if, but if you have say a Texas, Alabama or Texas, Georgia, whatever the case may be in the top four, one of those teams has to vacate for one of the other power four for for the other power four conference. So let's say, let's say for, for the shits and grins, it's Texas, Georgia, Ohio state and Oklahoma. Okay. Well, you can't have two SEC teams in the top four. So, um, Georgia has to go.
00:20:28
Speaker
Replaced by the the other power for conference, which would be the ACC. Okay. Well, let's say that champion is Duke. All right, so Duke Man, we'll call them say they're ranked seventh. So they revolt from seven to Number two or number four. I think actually I think they would go to number four So you would have Texas, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Duke as your teams that get the bye. Then you go to the next automatic qualifier, which is the leader in the group of five.
00:21:03
Speaker
okay uh and i believe that's um a ac sunbelt uh mountain west conference usa and one other um but you get so let's say that's memphis we'll just pick a team all right so memphis gets an automatic bid now if memphis is ranked they go in at whatever ranking they are in the top 12. So let's say they're seven. So they would be the seventh seed. So Georgia would then affect be the number five seed. And then whoever would be number five would drop down to six and on down the line. So Memphis, if they were seven, it actually we would drop probably one to whatever to fit that schedule in. If Memphis is not ranked, then they go in automatically number 12 and knock out the number 12 team.
00:21:59
Speaker
So there's a lot of implications on how, where and why. So this is why the losses right now and where everybody's going to set up is very important. I mean, you've got three undefeated teams in the big 10 right now. I don't see a situation where all three are going undefeated. Okay. Not going to happen. I don't think it will happen.
00:22:20
Speaker
I think the best chance of any of those three is going to be Penn State as the only team they really have on their schedule that's super tough for them is going to be Ohio State. So I don't think that's going to be that, that could be your only undefeated team. Indiana's got three tough games. Oregon's got two or three tough games. So I don't see both of those teams.
00:22:43
Speaker
I can see him going undefeated, but it's a little bit harder road than what Penn State's got. So you're going to end up with a couple of one loss teams there. And again, you've got this situation brewing where Illinois, Ohio State, Nebraska,
00:23:01
Speaker
They've all got games that they, and Nebraska is the one that could probably screw up everything, because they play Indiana and Ohio State, um and then they could upset an apple cart. You've got so many different complexities going on. Every game is going to be important from here on out for those six teams.
00:23:20
Speaker
And that's why I think this game against Illinois, Nebraska or in Illinois, Michigan is huge. The Indiana, Nebraska game is pretty good, pretty big game. I mean, two losses to Nebraska pretty much knocks them down almost out.
00:23:35
Speaker
um And again, you've got the other national implications going on. How many teams the SEC is going to get in? It's all going to work on the top 12. How many teams the big 12 is going to end up within? um Does the ACC crack the top 12? So there's a lot of things that are playing around in there. And you know we'll get more into that next week when we do the NCAA report with Russ.
00:24:00
Speaker
um but so you know the I think this game and I'm going to call it, uh, I'm going to call it the line on this game for Illinois, Michigan is three and a half.
00:24:16
Speaker
I would take the points and Illinois. I really seriously would. I think the over under is 44. Um,
00:24:29
Speaker
That's going to be a borderline bet. I don't know. I don't know which way I'd actually go on that. um And if you're betting Moneyline, I'm going to take the serious note. I'm going to bet the Moneyline on Illinois.
00:24:43
Speaker
I think they cover and I think they win the game outright. Score to be determined, if you will. So, all right. Well, ah we are going to take a quick break and then we're going to get to my interview with Doug Villehard.
00:25:00
Speaker
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Interview: Doug Villhard on Red Grange
00:27:56
Speaker
Joining me now via the Fuel Sports Network Hotline, the author of The Golden Age of Red.
00:28:04
Speaker
Doug Vallard, he is a professor and has put together a book about Red Grange and his exploits, albeit as he calls it fiction, but there's a lot of people in it that we are going to be able to talk about. I have not read the entire book, but I will tell you this folks, it is a theater of the mind book and Doug kudos to you for how you have written this book.
00:28:28
Speaker
Oh, hey, thanks a lot. I love red grains and I love the stories, you know, and I wanted to do it in such a way where it is a book, but when you're reading it, it feels like you're watching the movie. And that's the feeling I've got so far as I've read into it. Now you went and you start the book prior to the Michigan game. Coincidentally, this weekend is the 100th anniversary of Memorial Stadium and the rededication of the stadium against the same opponent it was opened up against that 100 years ago.
00:28:57
Speaker
Why did you choose that game? Yeah. So, you know, I thought, so first first of all, I love, I love her grades and I think the world needs to better understand him. You know, he's the Babe Ruth of football. You know, if you also love telling that story, but it was, it was a moment where it's red's junior year. And, um, by the way, you couldn't play your freshman year in college football back then. Isn't that fascinating? So fresh. Yeah.
00:29:25
Speaker
So he had just come off a, um, all American sophomore season. So he's like, he's known just like any other good player is known. But then that Michigan game, which we can talk about, you know, just bolts him to a level of fame at the time, even more popular than Babe Ruth.
00:29:45
Speaker
And I wanted to explore sort of what that must have been like at that time when you didn't really have like a blueprint for a professional athlete like we do today.
00:29:56
Speaker
and and what that might be feeling, especially for this guy who read just he's a star, but he doesn't want to be a star. He never wanted to be a star. He just wanted to be behind the scenes. And then, of course, we'll talk about it gets mixed up with a sports agent who should it be behind the scenes. But the sports agent, Cece Pyle, wants to be out front. So it was it was the tension between those two and the opportunity between those two that drew me to the story. I see.
00:30:23
Speaker
Couple things that I noticed in the book when you were as you were as I was reading it and there was the one section there where it was coach sub key was talking to the reporter and the reporter suggested read.
00:30:40
Speaker
moving up to the next level, which at that time was the was the fledgling NFL and the reaction of the sub key his disdain, I guess, is the best way to put it for the NFL. How real was that? Very real, very real. So college football, 100 years ago,
00:31:00
Speaker
is actually very similar to today, right? um They're selling out Memorial Stadium, 67,000 people, they're selling out at Ohio State, 85,000 people, right? It's really has like captured the imagination of the college audience.
00:31:15
Speaker
But pro football was um a step lower at the time than professional wrestling. That's that's how that's hard to think about it. and um And the thing is, is like you didn't have TV then, right? So a lot of people had not seen it because they didn't go to college. Very few people had gone to college at that time. So it's kind of an elitist sport, if you will. right And the masses didn't quite understand it yet. But what Zabki,
00:31:44
Speaker
that what college coaches were worried about is that they had created this sport in college and it's selling out and making tons of money for them. And they are worried that if pro takes off in any kind of real way, what's going to happen is a college player is going to have a good game on a Saturday and then he's going to get tempted to go pro on Sunday.
00:32:10
Speaker
Right. So they're so they're basically going to ruin college football. It's going to become like a minor league system. And by the way, no, no offense to college baseball players. But he was but he was worried it was going to become like that. Right. And not not really not really have the attention and draw draw the crowds. Right. So that's what that's what they were worried. Yeah.
00:32:34
Speaker
at at the time and they didn't he didn't want lendt or he didn't want red to lend credibility to the league. And by the way, I think the analogy is very similar today with Caitlin Clark.
00:32:47
Speaker
who was such an outstanding basketball player at Iowa, becomes really famous. right And then she chooses to go to the to lend her celebrity to the WNBA. Look what happened there is exactly you know what what they feared Red would do by lending his celebrity to the NFL and letting it take off. And then all of a sudden college football becomes a secondary sport.
00:33:11
Speaker
Now, of course, George Halas, who was the owner, player, coach, chief cook and bottle washer for the Chicago Bears in the, in the early years, uh, of course played for Zubkey as well. Do you think that had any old direction on, on, on how Zubkey may have felt about the NFL with, with, uh, uh, Halas being the, he was, a he was a four star athlete, uh, or four sport athlete in Illinois.
00:33:38
Speaker
Yeah, Zepke at the time, and and they became friends later and all those times. We got friendly again later, but Zepke saw a house as a betrayal, as a betrayal to do that. And what, and you know, there's something that happened. So we're we're talking, this this book is set, you know, starts in 1924, Red's junior year, right? hundred word It's 2024, so a hundred years ago. But in 1919, there was a scandal.
00:34:05
Speaker
where it's called the Carlinville-Taylorville scandal. I remember seeing a little bit about that in the book, yeah. Yes, Taylorville, Illinois. And what happened was is these two towns were would have a football game with with basically the kids that had gone to that town, right, who are older now, and they would bet against each other.
00:34:26
Speaker
And when one of the towns had this idea that they should get some notre dame current Notre Dame players to come play secretly, right? And that way that that way they could bet and win. and all And the betting got crazy. And when the other town heard about it, they then recruited current Illinois players to come and play. So there was this game over Thanksgiving with active um Notre Dame players and active Illinois players playing for money.
00:34:55
Speaker
And a lot of people thought the Chicago Chicago mob was involved. Al Capone was involved and it became a scandal. And what had, what happened was, um, Zupke and Newt Rockne too was on the other side. Right. Right. Right. First of all, they had to plead their innocence that they didn't know about it. And then secondly, they were forced by their athletic directors to say pro football is bad.
00:35:20
Speaker
Right. Playing for money is bad. right And they were forced to expel all the kids that play, ah kick them off all the teams. So we're coming out. He's coming off of this scandal too. So he, so he really thinks that pro pros in general, the pro leagues in general have no integrity.
00:35:38
Speaker
And they'll just take a farm kid, by the way, red grains paid tuition. There were no, no college scholarship, right? Yeah, I didn't have scholarships back in the 20s. Right. yeah Yeah. So so that's what they were really, that's what they were really worried about. And why sub key hated this. I mean, i imagine, imagine your, um you know, you have ah your team that you have a really good game on Saturday. And then and then on Sunday, your kids turn pro. Right.
00:36:07
Speaker
right So that was the world that he was in. And then flash forward, forward the reason that college football and pro ended up getting along is for something called the Red Grange Rule, which says that um you're not, it's still today, stillt still today on the books today. It says that a player can't play college and pro in the same season. So once you once in the fall you commit to college,
00:36:36
Speaker
You can't be a pro until it swings around. The calendar swings around a year later. season the next And without the red grains rule, those two leagues could coexist. That makes sense. So that's the time period that we're in at the time. Yeah. I was going through some of the other characters in the book, CC pile.
00:36:55
Speaker
Yeah, the sports agent. The sports agent. He was the curator of the Virginia theater at the time? or Yeah, yeah he pray he acted like he owned it, but he didn't. just for He just worked there. He just worked there. yeah but he But he was kind of ah an agent to other stars.
00:37:13
Speaker
No, the this is the interesting thing about him. Okay, we today we call him the first sports agent. Okay, at the time, they didn't use that term at all. They use the term promoter. He's, he's, it's better to think of him not like Jerry McGuire, um but better to think of him like Don King, more like a promoter. And what what was interesting about CC pile is he's 40.
00:37:39
Speaker
Red Grains is 20 at the time. C.C. Pyle is kind of washed up. he He wanted to be an actor. And 20 years earlier, right when he was Red's age, he was trying to be an actor. And many of the actors that he worked with at the time went on to great fame, including Charlie Chaplin and others. And he just it just passed him by.
00:38:01
Speaker
You know, and he did a number of things and kicked around insurance and a bunch of other stuff. And he ends up sort of no, no offense to our lovely town of Champaign. But in his opinion, sort of like stuck, you know, in ah in a small, in a small town and running a theater.
00:38:18
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, right there in town is this kid, this football player, who's suddenly more famous than Babe Ruth because of this because of this game against against Michigan, which we haven't talked about just yet. But he's just like, now, wait a second. And by the way, CC files over time is kind of vi vilified, being greedy and such like that. But he saw himself as a champion of the student athletes.
00:38:44
Speaker
like right? and He's saying, Red, you're, first of all, you're paying tuition, you're not even, you or don't even have scholar college scholarship. These stadiums are selling out because of you. Colleges are literally making millions of dollars in money back then because of you. And you're risking your life for what? You know, for what? So, you know, so he saw he saw himself as a champion for the for these kids.
00:39:09
Speaker
it did that That brings up the the crazy thought of, if NIL would have been in play back in 19, how much money Red Grange could have commanded? ah While he was still in college, yeah. While he was still in college, right. Ian C.C. Pyle made the argument at the time, there is no rule against that.
00:39:28
Speaker
there there's There wasn't. there was there wast There was a rule that said that you could not be paid to play football. But there was not a rule that said that you you couldn't capitalize at the time. they won your name and i l Yeah, they called it fame. You couldn't capitalize on your fame. But red has such integrity.
00:39:48
Speaker
You know that he won't take a dime until you know it is. And you know so where did you came up with all this information on red and and and his character and and how he felt and. and Yeah, yeah. So when you when you do historical fiction, you know, ah like i've I've seen where Red and CC Pollard alone talking, right, which I was not at. Right. And which were were not documented, right? So how how do you do that? But so there's a number of books written on the bottom, right? And that's a great that's a great place to look at lots of things on the internet. And um YouTube is full
00:40:26
Speaker
of interviews of Red Grange in his older years talking about these things. But what what I found to be most fun was going to the archives at the University of Illinois and the archives at Wheaton College, Wheaton, Illinois, just outside of Chicago, where Red's hometown was, and Red donated like all all the things people had given him and all that stuff between these two places. So when you were going through the archives,
00:40:54
Speaker
you can find things that you can't find on the internet, right? You can find like clippings, you can find um kids back then, today we have Facebook, but kids back then had scrapbooks. right Like every kid in school had a scrapbook and kept it. And every kid had a page or two dedicated to Red Grange. And when they would pass away, often their families would just give this donate the scrapbook back to the archives. So it was flipping through those. And you see things too, that I think are are kind of taught me off guard. Like, um when they went to parties, um they had dance cards. In 19 in 1924, like girls would, you know, girls and guys that fill out each other's dance cards, right, right, um to see those types of things. And we met, you know, trying to get rig range, you know, you know, to, like to line up a line up a dance with them. There was those kinds of things that let me, you know, sort of under understand the time period and such like that and take us, you know, take us back to that.
00:41:53
Speaker
Yeah, OK, let's get into that game. um You know, in in the book, you mentioned that Zuckey decided at the last minute before this monumental game against ah the reigning college champion. That instead of red running a particular play one way, they were going to switch it up and run it another way. Yeah, that's right. And and was that
Red Grange's Legendary Game vs Michigan
00:42:20
Speaker
really done the night before the game?
00:42:22
Speaker
Yeah. So, um, so not exactly the night before the, game okay in in real life, although it more dramatic like that, but, but very similar though. So for, first of all, let's talk about Zuppke for a second. He, if you go to a memorial stadium, you'll see Zuppke field, right? It's named after him.
00:42:39
Speaker
But sadly, the the world the world doesn't knows up to you in the way that they know like new rock me and they know um they know Yoast from Michigan and stag from University of Chicago like he he he should be up there, but he's not.
00:42:53
Speaker
Why? We talk about that. But at the time, he was he had four national championships in this time period. He's this short little more German guy and a stature way too small to actually play football, you know, like at a serious level. But what he made up for in physicality, he did made up with his brain. He was a genius. So he invented these things um that he invented the following while he was while he was at Illinois. um The screen pass.
00:43:23
Speaker
That is Bob Zuppke, the spiral snap, so basically the shotgun, Bob Zuppke, the flea flicker, the fake punt, and then the best of all, um the huddle.
00:43:36
Speaker
was created by Bob Zuppke. He had all these trick plays. So he said, you know, it's like have like a little mini timeout for a second and talk to each other. And at the time, all the other coaches were just happy to try to find the biggest farm kid possible and run them up the mid middle. And they used to call Zuppke in a derogatory way, ah Mr. Razzle Dazzle. That's what they called him. So yeah, so what he did with Red was basically had him kind of run the same play for almost a year which is which is basically to he's very fast which basically is simple play basically which is use your blockers run outside and then break loose along the sidelines.
00:44:18
Speaker
So on this game, opening kickoff comes to red, catches it on the five-yard line, just like Zabki has had him do for years, follows his blockers to the right, and then all of a sudden he cuts back to the left. And they were not expecting that, and he runs it all the way back for 95 yards.
00:44:37
Speaker
And that's a big deal because Michigan, um most most football scores are like three to six. It's very rare even to get a touchdown. And Michigan i had only given up like four in the last two years, yeah and he runs that back. And then Michigan, they also had rules a little bit different. Michigan then elected to kick off again because they valued field position over possession.
00:44:59
Speaker
Couple more plays, red scores again, and then again, and then again. And that's four touchdowns in 12 minutes against a team that hadn't given up four in two years. And then second half red scores, two more. Andy gets two interceptions on defense because they played both sides of the ball. Right. Both sides of the ball. Yeah. So in order 400 yards at a time when ah a great player might have 50 is a 400 yards.
00:45:24
Speaker
And Sports Illustrated, til to still today, calls it the most unforgettable moment in sports. And that's all sports. What Red did. You're talking about the rules being different. and A couple of things that I that i noted that noted reading the book was that um back then, if you were taken out in any one half,
00:45:46
Speaker
you couldn't come back in. That's right, because it's based on soccer rules, which I wasn't like that big of a soccer guy until St. Louis got a team recently. But like, in professional soccer, once you come out, you can't go back. At least, you know, yeah, so it's based on that. But has isn't that crazy? Because we substitute offense and defense. Yeah, right now all the time. Yeah, there was that. And then the the other one was um that the coaches couldn't coach from the sideline.
00:46:12
Speaker
Unbelievable. Yeah. They couldn't, that really didn't happen until the sixties. Not, not only could a coach not call the plays, he had to sit on the bench. Right. Yeah. He couldn't, couldn't stand on the sidelines. he had understand And that's why it's such a big deal. You get a coach like Zuppke, he could basically turn red grains into an assistant coach. So basically you got red grains on the field. That's your offensive and your defensive coordinator.
00:46:37
Speaker
out there, right? So you really can't have him get out of the game. Because he's got the whole strategy, um if if you will. So, and especially with a Zuppke strategy, which is going to be, I mean, if you're playing Bob Zuppke, you have no idea what's going to happen. He could punt on first down, right? And the next time he gets the ball first down, he could punt again.
00:47:01
Speaker
And then next time he gets the ball, he could fake it. Right. I mean, you know, they just, he just, he just drove those other coaches nuts. Who's, you know, like I said, their big play was get a big kid and run them up the metal. Right. So he just, he just innovated. We're really creative. We call it what, you know, what would be like an option offense got today. And red, red is all American, his sophomore and junior year at halfback. And then he's all American, his senior year at quarterback.
00:47:29
Speaker
I mean, who who does that? Who does that? and And you can't do it without a genius like a coach like Zuppke behind you. And that's what Red said. all all He said, I'll give you this. I run fast. I'll give you that. but the But the way these guys block for me and the way Coach has designed these plays, that's what's going on.
00:47:48
Speaker
here. And in fact, red said red said that his, um he said his on on that day when he made those scored those six touchdowns, he read says my grandmother could have scored those touchdowns. And he and he's like, and she walks with a cane. yeah You know, the way that the way that that team rallied around him.
00:48:06
Speaker
Now, you mentioned also in the book, um again, early on in the book, read was approached prior to the Chicago game versus Alonzo Stag was approached by the proposed owner ah or the new owner of of the New York Giants. I mean, as you said, was that that was pretty much an acceptable practice by the NFL at the time that they could just go and grab a kid right out of the middle of the season or? Yeah, so it's before. um I'm not sure if we've talked about the red range role. Yeah, you you mentioned the red green. i apologize um So before the red grains rule,
00:48:47
Speaker
Yeah, what what tomorrow the owner of the Giants, which was a new team that was starting out, Tim had vision. Tim Tim said, Hey, look, the Major League Baseball has um only has teams in big cities. And he said the NFL has a team in Chicago, and all the other teams are in cities you never heard of.
00:49:07
Speaker
before, like look for like Green Bay, for example, it seems like, you know, like, that's actually, we care be careful about it in Green Bay boys. Okay. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Fair enough. But but like, but like, come Canton, Ohio, and like, you know, Dayton, Ohio, and like, very, very small towns, right? He was like, Hey, look, we we need to be in big cities, like, like New York. And we need a Babe Ruth.
00:49:31
Speaker
the league needs a star. So this kid read Grange after after this crazy game against Michigan is now more famous than Babe Ruth. And yeah, Mara makes them an offer. He says, you know what, by the way, at the time, average salary was $2,000, not not a football salary, just just a personnel in the world. Right. Yeah. And Mara's like, I'll pay you I'll pay a $50,000 read for just for just a couple of games.
00:50:01
Speaker
Right. So, I mean, because he saw the power of it, he's like, you're going to sell out stadiums here. So yeah. So it was incredible. Pardon my, my forget it. Forgetfulness here on that, but it's all right. Was it the sports writer Warren that suggested the red grain, the red grains league? Yeah. So, so it was actually also CC pile. So CC pile, CC pile. Okay. Yeah, that's okay. CC pile said, so, so listen.
00:50:26
Speaker
We, could we, they, you could get paid by these guys to play for them. And then that's awesome. And you, and you'll make money and that's great, but at some point you're going to be too old to play, right? I mean, you're 22, it's hard to see to realize that, but at some point you'll be too old. And he said, instead of, instead of playing for them, you should have your own team. And, and CC Powell also thought it should be in New York and, and suggested that he play for, and that they create a team called the New York Yankees.
00:50:57
Speaker
right, New York Yankees. and um And tomorrow the owner of the Giants said, hey, I have the exclusive rights to New York. So that's not going to happen. And then C.C. Powell said, you know what? And and by the the way, all the other teams begged him to just put his team somewhere else other than New York, because they wanted red in the league. And then, you know, and he's kind of said, screw it. He said, you know what? um Not only do I think you shouldn't play for another team, I think you should own a team. I think we should should own the whole league.
00:51:26
Speaker
actually. So Red Grange and CeCe Pyle formed what was called the AFL to compete with the NFL with Red Grange playing for the New York Yankees, which is exactly what what they did in in 2026. I'm sorry, 2026, 1926. So it's just it's just amazing to think that I mean, what if Caitlin Clark had done that? What if she had said instead of going in the draft and all that and making just what rookies made? What if she just said, you know, I'm just going to make my own a new league?
00:51:55
Speaker
Which and she had offers to do that because she there's like some like ah leagues in like, Las Vegas and stuff like that and like three on three leagues like, you know, like it it was very interesting, but Ray Green's and CCP went through with it but because they thought that someday he's not gonna be a player anymore. We might as well not just on a team, but on the league. So it's incredible.
00:52:15
Speaker
looking at it from as as as we're looking back at some of this stuff and there's as you're going like some over the rules and some of the other things. And of course, back in the 20s, 20s, 30s you had, as you just mentioned ah earlier with these the scandal in the and then in 1919 and was there ever any worry um about about organized crime basically getting into that era of, because, you know, that would have been a prime, to me, a prime cherry for saying, hey, this is something new we can, we can front them money to make this happen. You know what I'm saying? I don't, was there any worry about that at the time? No, not, and not I shouldn't say, not just worry. I'm sure it happened.
00:52:58
Speaker
I'm sure it happened. You know what also was in 1919? The Black Sox, you know, the white yeah old Black Sox scandal, right? Which is definitely, definitely. That was definitely underworld ties there. And, um and I just saw this thing the other day about how George Halas, owner of the Bears, um had an FBI file.
00:53:23
Speaker
from J. Edgar Hoover. And like when in lots of people had ah files from J. Edgar Hoover, but once you die or whatever, they they redact it and make it public. And what they were saying was, like why does George Hollis have this file? And they believed that it had something to do with the was just speculation, but the potential that that he was an informant and helping helping the FBI you know to crack down on this type of gambling, which was obviously happening you know at at the time. But there's no, there's no I mean, the house is only viewed, and only viewed by me as a hero you know in that situation, having to deal with that. But yeah, no that was absolutely going on at the time. And I i do have a scene in the book with um Red and CC Pyle and Hallis at a speakeasy.
00:54:10
Speaker
Right. Which is, but which is very, very, um, which happened. Right. Yeah. Progition era. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, red being nervous the whole time, you know, as if, if the, you know, if he's going to be asked to throw games yeah and such and such like that. kind of get it Getting back a little bit, you mentioned you kind of.
00:54:30
Speaker
Oh, it's kind of, I won't say it's indicated in the book, but the, but it kind of leaves it open about the night before the Michigan game. Uh, red has this encounter with, uh, Polly, I think her name was, uh, um, and has an issue with the brother and suffers what would consider to be a knife wound in the back shoulder. And then he's out there. They pull him out in the second quarter.
00:54:58
Speaker
with that game. And the reason he gave is because so we're all not the reason he gave his guard gave the reason that he was, he was plumb tired and, and just needed a break or something. But it was also kind of that, that thought of, okay, well, was he actually hurt? I mean, so i now yeah how is that part of the addiction? That's the kind of the beauty, some of the beauty of fiction, if you will, is are those parts. But what is, what is true?
00:55:24
Speaker
is that um Red has what's considered to be the greatest you know college football game of all time, and he did not play the second quarter. Yeah. Right. That's 400 yards. And he actually only paid played three quarters. I was looking at some of the stats early at 212 yards rushing and 60 some yards passing 120 some odd yards and kick returns special teams. Yeah. And, um, so I just find it, I just find it fascinating that they would pull them out of the game. Yeah.
00:55:58
Speaker
That they were pulled out of the game but those those things those things are generally lost to history but we have but we have some fun with that in the book. Okay quick question I mean you you're obviously a red-graged fan. Is he still the epitome of a college football player? Yeah.
00:56:17
Speaker
yeah Yeah, yeah. So here's the thing. ESPN calls him the greatest college player of all time. And so and so do I. But yeah here's what here's what you have to understand ah about him is um no one before him had did what he did in this in the sense of how dominant he was in the field. And how dominant he was in the media.
00:56:44
Speaker
to at this at the same time. And so there's players before that are great. But but he he was not just great. He introduced the sport to America because because even though it was popular in college, it wasn't outside of that. And the thing that the thing that was really, I think, most fascinating about him at a time before television is there was film and they would do these news reels of him, which they would show before movie theaters. And but and during World War I, this bread comes a couple of years after World War I, but during World War I, they said that three-fourths of Americans went to the movies three times a week
00:57:34
Speaker
And the reason that they did that was not because of the movie, but it's because um it's basically like what they watched the war they watched like the nightly news in these news reels. That's how you got your news back then, right? Yeah. Yeah. So when the 20s comes around, we're not at war anymore. A roaring 20s. We have these new worker laws where you don't have to work seven days a week. And we have disposable income. So he sort of created time, if you will, and in money, if you will. So these um newsreels also led to his fame because because the old film was a little bit grainy and it ran a little bit faster than normal time. So when you see Red take off for that 90-yard um touchdown, right something note very few would actually see him do in person, they would just see on this film, he looks superhuman.
00:58:26
Speaker
All right. He he was I mean, he's already one of the fastest men on the planet. But in this in this frame, he looks unbelievable. And, um, in a lot of, when I was reading news articles about him, I was shocked how many times they called him superhuman, superhuman, superhuman, or they called him Superman too. And that's not a character that's invented for decades later, actually. And, and there was a point with red grains where some people started saying that maybe he had x-ray vision.
00:58:59
Speaker
and And maybe he could see had this incredible peripheral vision. And red Red said he had to look up what that meant because he wasn't event know he he didn't know what peripheral what peripheral vision meant at the time. but And then there were there were reports that his eyes would go black while he was running and reports that he was not human.
00:59:20
Speaker
And even having to get examined at one point just to to prove these things. So build the like lore of Red Grange was going on. and And that's, I think, has something to do with it. It's not not only an exceptional athlete, but sort of creating this like hero worship.
00:59:38
Speaker
if you will, at at the same time. And and i I think that's why it's worthy of us talking about it. Also, today, there's a blueprint for professional athletes. They are exceptional on the field. And then they have, you know, they have ah endorsements, right, and other things like that. Well, his time, they didn't. And and he and C.C. Powell invented all of that. You know, like Michael Jordan was in the movie Space Jam, which I thought was amazing that sports guys were in movies. Right. Green starred in movies.
01:00:08
Speaker
you know, in the 1920s. So he's really he really like created the blueprint for how this works today. And, um you know, and including trying to be smart about actually capitalizing on it while it happens, and saving money for the future, too. So there's there's a lot of things going on on the field, and off the field that make him the greatest.
01:00:29
Speaker
This has been so fascinating. I mean, the world was a different place. The world was a different time, ah but you've got this, what some would consider fairy tale.
01:00:41
Speaker
But it's real. It actually did happen. Like you said, it's a superhuman type feat. Then you look at the young man himself being such a, I won't say withdrawn, but not seeking the attention of the media, not seeking the attention of the fans, just going out there doing what he does and wanting to go back and being left, alone like sitting in the back of the movie theater on the on the very back row, watching the movie.
01:01:11
Speaker
yeah that's right that's that's this that's this kid you know you know what you know what he wanted he wanted to be the first in his family to go to college and he wanted to get a decent job.
01:01:22
Speaker
And he wanted to work that job and have a family and buy a house and buy a car and do those types of things and retire to Florida. And he he wanted to be a he human being, you know, a normal person. That's what he wanted. And then this incredible thing comes on him. And there's actually a lot of interviews he does talk a about to skip ahead.
01:01:45
Speaker
um after his football days are over and he's not famous anymore. um He hasn't runs an insurance company. for 10 years, not a company, an agency. And he looks back and says, that's the best time of his life. Like, that's what he always wanted. Normal. And then, and then right after owning that for about 10 years, this crazy thing comes out called television. And he gets lured back to be a color commentator to to do to do games on the weekend, right?
Conclusion of Doug Villhard Interview
01:02:15
Speaker
Now he's not. He did, uh,
01:02:18
Speaker
He did what, for the Bears? I'm not exactly sure, but I know that he did college games, for sure. I'm not sure. I mean, like the college game of the week, but I think he also did some Bears games in the NFL or something. I'm sure that he did, but I think it's the college stuff that he's most... that he's most known for. Well, Doug, this has been, like I said, this has been super fantastic talking to you. I really appreciate you coming on. Um, and you know, um, again, I, I, I recommend the book. I said, I haven't read it all folks, but I do. I recommend this book. Uh, if you want a good read and you want some theater of the mind, this is what, this is the book you got to read for that, especially if you're into sports and Illinois sports fans as well. One thing, one quick thing before I let you go.
01:03:04
Speaker
Okay. You got an idea about what's going to happen this weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Here's what's going to happen. And by the way, I'm going to be there. Um, I'm going to be on in the field too. Isn't that incredible? So I get to watch, I just watched that opening kickoff. We're going to get the ball. I don't know. It's going to get the ball and we're going to run it back for a touchdown. And then, and then you're going to watch, um, emergency services, uh, bring me back to life.
01:03:29
Speaker
after I have my heart attack. So I think that's what's going to happen. What I don't think is going to happen is after Illinois runs it back, I don't think Michigan is going to turn around and kick it back to us. ah Probably not. That I know it's that i know is not going to happen that way.
01:03:45
Speaker
But if, um, I mean, he's not, you know, he's the galloping ghost, right? He's the galloping ghost. So he's looking out for us. We're going to have a fun day. They started this thing. I don't know if you know this, they started this thing last year at the Illinois games where between the third and fourth quarter, they have the 77 yard dash and they have a person in.
01:04:05
Speaker
1920 football tie red with the, with the number 77 on a red Grange Jersey and a student gets to race red Grange for 77 yards. And if the student wins, they get some kind of a prize of some kind. And I'm pretty sure the student never wins.
01:04:20
Speaker
I don't, the only few times I've seen the race, no, he hasn't won yet. Can you imagine, uh, you or I racing him, we would, our Hammy would go out and like, why a I'd be done after the first 15 yards. I've had a, I've had a knee replacement. I'd be done. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah yeah yeah You're out. And you know, and and that's an amazing thing too. This ghost nickname.
01:04:41
Speaker
is so perfect for two reasons. Number one, there's all this video of him. He just like disappears and all all the all the men on the field, he's gone. And then bam, he's out the other side. like it like when yeah like When you go under a wave, like you are you know like you've seen surfers like disappear in the wave.
01:04:59
Speaker
and then and they're saying like you just can't grab him he's just like an aberration like he's just like a a mist and it's like wasn't the reporter that reporter uh warren was he the one that came up yeah warren brown came up with it the galloping ghost um the the the horse at the time the famous horse at the time was called man of war and his nickname was uh uh his nickname the horse's nickname was galloping comet So that they kind of put it together. But Grantland Rice is a famous, the most famous um so writer at the time. he like they Everyone gives him credit for it, but it was actually a reporter out of out of Chicago named Warren Brown who came up with it. Yeah, I think it was the Chicago American, if I remember right. Yeah, yeah and Redgrange credits Warren Brown, too, for being the one that actually coined it.
01:05:45
Speaker
um Well, Doug, i'm gonna we're going to go ahead and I'll let you go. Again, this has been super fascinating and I do recommend a book and the author is Doug Villard. The name of the book is The Golden Age of Red.
01:05:59
Speaker
And like I said, if you want a super fun read, if you want to have some theater of the mind, please check that book out. And, and if you do read it, let me know what you think, you know, you can, you can always contact the show at my Twitter handle, tso tb GCS. um And let me know what you think of the book, what you think of the show itself. And Doug, again, super pumped that you were on tonight.
01:06:23
Speaker
how compete If anybody wants to what's to know what else you've written the what you've read or or what you've written? yeah Yeah, sure. If you go to dougbellhard.com, you can you can find all my books are out at Amazon and such like that. and um And I'm really proud to have them at the campus bookstore.
01:06:39
Speaker
And also there's a bookstore in town called The Literary. And and they're there as well. as Champagne has really embraced this book. And um i think it's I think it's because I hope I've written a nice book and easy to read and and fun. But but Red Grange is ours. Red Grange is University of Illinois. Red Grange is Champagne. And let's celebrate.
01:07:03
Speaker
Yes. All right. Well, again, thank you so much for coming on. And again, I really, really appreciate having you on. We'll definitely have to maybe do this again sometime. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Thanks for having me. All right. Well, thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Well, my thanks to Doug Vellard for that interview. He's I said, again, read that book if you get a chance. It's the Golden Age of Red. Very, very well written book.
Show Wrap-Up & Sign-Off
01:07:31
Speaker
So that's going to do it for me tonight. Uh, don't forget to check out fuelsportsnetwork dot.com. You can find a lot of different podcasts. The team of rivals with Ron Pete and Elliot, the two for three with Moose Michaels at the park with Ron Nuttall talking about city soccer. There's the A-Train. There's the NCAA report that I do with my good buddy Russ Robinson. And as always, the Derek King Sports Show. And we also have a ton of articles written by a number of different people, so check it out at fuelsportsnetwork dot.com.
01:08:09
Speaker
So for me tonight, have fun, stay safe. We'll see you again when we're talking sports on the bleachers. Good night, everybody.